Monday, March 29, 2010

rec.arts.movies.local.indian - 9 new messages in 7 topics - digest


Today's topics:

* Dr Jai Maharaj is a sad Monkey - 1 messages, 1 author
* Vote for Slumdog - 1 messages, 1 author
* From Paris with love - 1 messages, 1 author
* new Movies updates - 1 messages, 1 author
* Old movies and copyrights - 1 messages, 1 author


== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Mar 27 2010 11:20 pm
From: Mirza Ghalib

On Mar 16, 6:08 pm, and/or (Dr.
Jai Maharaj) wrote:
> Forwarded article
> Thursday, April 16, 2009
> Supreme Court's SIT frames charges against Teesta
> Supreme Court appointed SIT brings out charges against a leading
> "activist" Teesta Setalvad for "cooking up macabre tales of
> killings", tutoring witnesses, and concocting horror stories. She has
> not only done deep disservice to the victims of the Gujarat riots;
> she has also undermined the credibility of so-called secular
> interlocutors. It confirms the suspicion many have, that often those
> speaking in the name of secularism do not subscribe to the very
> values they claim to be fighting for: truth, justice, impartiality
> and the rule of law. Their secularism is in the service of beating
> down opponents rather than discovering the truth.
> "This story should have been a big front page story. It deserves much
> more coverage and discussion", says the reporter.
> Read - An Unconscionable Act
> Posted by Jayprakash Acharya
> End of forwarded article from:
> Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi
> Om Shanti
>      o  Not for commercial use. Solely to be fairly used for the educational
> purposes of research and open discussion. The contents of this post may not
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> Since newsgroup posts are being removed
> by forgery by one or more net terrorists,
> this post may be reposted several times.

This (converted) Muslim woman masquerades as Hindu, the
same way one time Sharmila Tagore (now Asghar (or something like
that) Sultana) takes advantage of both worlds. There should be
a law prohibiting converts to use their original name.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 28 2010 12:00 pm
From: "P. Rajah"

Jay Stevens Maharaj aka the jumpin' jackass jyotishithead aka the
abominable asstrolloger wrote:

> Forwarded article
> Thursday, April 16, 2009
> Supreme Court's SIT frames charges against Teesta
> Supreme Court appointed SIT brings out charges against a leading
> "activist" Teesta Setalvad for "cooking up macabre tales of
> killings", tutoring witnesses, and concocting horror stories. She has
> not only done deep disservice to the victims of the Gujarat riots;
> she has also undermined the credibility of so-called secular
> interlocutors. It confirms the suspicion many have, that often those
> speaking in the name of secularism do not subscribe to the very
> values they claim to be fighting for: truth, justice, impartiality
> and the rule of law. Their secularism is in the service of beating
> down opponents rather than discovering the truth.
> "This story should have been a big front page story. It deserves much
> more coverage and discussion", says the reporter.
> Read - An Unconscionable Act
> Posted by Jayprakash Acharya

Baseless reports in the Indian media alleging that social activist
Teesta Setalvad and CPJ exaggerated the violence during Gujarat pogrom
of 2002

Official Statements by Citizens For Peace and Justice and SAHMAT

CJP's Rebuttal on Media Coverage of Supreme Court Proceedings, April 13,

The report in sections of the national media dated April 14, 2009,
alleging that NGOs, Teesta etc misled the apex court and exaggerated the
violence in Gujarat in 2002 are clear example of irresponsible
reportage. Intentionally or otherwise, the distorted report damages the
reputation of a citizens' group that has been recognized nationally and
internationally for working assiduously to ensure justice to the victims
of mass violence whether in case of the Gujarat carnage (2002), or the
bomb blasts in Mumbai (2006 and 2008) or the communal carnage in
Kandhamal district, Orissa (2008), irrespective of the caste or creed of
the victims or the perpetrators.

The fact is that neither Sri Raghavan, nor any other SIT member was
present at the apex court to "tell" it anything. These reports could
only be referring to a contention made in a four page note circulated by
Ms Hemantika Wahi for the Gujarat Government.. It was NOT a note
prepared by SIT.

The detailed report of SIT submitted to the Supreme Court on March 6,
2007 has not been available for study either to National Human Rights
Commission (NHRC), the petitioners in this case, or the Citizens for
Justice and Peace (CJP) who have intervened in this critical matter or
to any in the media. Any reference to it is hence hearsay and it may
amount to contempt of court to write about a report which the Court has
specifically not made public.

In its written note that the Gujarat state circulated in court
yesterday, the state has given its brief comments on the SIT report. In
para four of this note the Gujarat government note refers to alleged
statements made by some witnesses in the Gulberg case before SIT that
name accused other than those named by them in the written statements
that were (according to the state of Gujarat) given to them by Teesta
Setalvad and advocates. This is the version of the Gujarat state.
Besides this, Mukhul Rohatgi tried to make a populist speech in court
saying that incidents like the Kauser Bano case etc never happened. The
Supreme Court disregarded this argument and did not allow Mr.Rohatgi to
read anything from the report. The court went on to state that they were
not interested in personal allegations and only ensuring that, like in
the course of the Zahira Shaikh case, the trials are fair, the truth
comes out and the course of justice is served.

It is necessary to recalled that in the course of the Best Bakery trial,
too, the Gujarat government had tried to divert the court's attention by
engineering charges against Teesta Setalvad, secretary CJP and by
implication the NGO. On Setalvad's application to the apex court for a
full fledged inquiry the report of the Registrar of the apex court
exonerated Setalvad and the NGO completely.

As reported by the rest of the national media, on Monday, ignoring Sri
Rohatgi's bid to side-step the main issues, the three-member bench of
the Supreme Court remained focused on the modalities of setting up
designated courts for the trial of the accused in the post-Godhra riot
cases in Gujarat. Instead of highlighting the court proceedings, Sri
Mahapatra chose to spice up his report focusing not on the deliberations
or the intentions of the apex court but to promote the case of the
Gujarat government.

The moot question is whether or not 2,500 persons were killed in a
ghastly perpetrated massacre following the tragic burning alive of 59
persons on the Sabarmati express; whether or not ex parliamentarian
Ahsan Jafri was mutilated before being burnt alive, whether the bodies
of the missing dead (over 220) have not been found or returned for
dignified burial after seven long years? All the national media was
witness to this national tragedy.

In the interests of fair reportage and to ensure that the reputation of
a citizens group committed to equity and justice is not deliberately
vitiated before the trials commence, the media should carry this
rebuttal in full. A failure to do so will result in the columns of a
national newspaper being used to distort facts, shape public perception
and seek to influence the outcome of due process of law and justice to
the victims of mass murder.

(Statement by Citizens for Justice and Peace, Mumbai, April 14, 2009,

We wish also that the following issues

Pertinent issues ignored in these reports:

The arrests of minister Dr Maya Kodnani and Dr Jaideep Patel in the past
weeks were on the basis of SIT re-investigations. Twelve FIRs filed by
witnesses naming these accused in 2002 had been clubbed into a magnum
FIR by the Ahmedabad crime branch that had dropped the names of these
powerful accused;

The arrests of investigating officer KG Erda in the Gulberg case and of
other policemen in the other cases over the past months has meant the
claims of witness survivors and legal rights groups, prima facie, are valid;

That this was one of the issues why the apex court has chosen to appoint
SIT, the full scale subversion of the process of justice, from the
removal of names of accused who's names appeared in earlier statements
simply because they enjoyed political patronage; the appointment of
prosecutors with allegiances to the BJP and VHP which meant instead of
promoting fair trial they sided with the politically powerful and
protected accused;

More pertinently the tragic slaying of pregnant Kauser Bano at Naroda
Patiya after slitting her womb was reported in Deccan Herald,(April 17,
2004) and The Indian Express, (March 23, 2005) among others apart from
finding place in innumerable reports including the one authored by the
Concerned Citizens Tribunal-Crimes Against Humanity 2002 headed by two
Supreme Court judges, Justices Krishna Iyer and PB Sawant. Similarly the
British national case was similarly documented apart from being covered
in The Pioneer, March 3, 2002 and The Hindu, April 23, 2002.


Teesta Setalvad, I.M. Kadri, Arvind Krishnaswamy, Javed Akhtar, Cyrus
Guzder, Alyque Padamsee, Anil Dharker, Nandan Maluste, Javed Anand,
Rahul Bose, Cedric Prakash
Press Statement on Tendentious Reporting in Media

We are deeply disturbed by the tendentious reports in the media of the
Supreme Court proceedings on April 13 dealing with the SIT report on the
Gujarat carnage of 2002.

This unhealthy trend in the media reporting is going to seriously
compromise the credibility of the media and undermine "freedom of
expression" enjoyed by the media which we all cherish.

An impression being created in a section of the media that the former
CBI director R K Raghvan who led the SIT has "told" the court that
Teesta Setalvad "cooked up macabre tales of wanton killing" is
mischievious. Only the Supreme Court, the amicus curiae and the Gujarat
government have access to the report. The SIT has not filed any other
document in court to which the media has access nor was Mr. Raghvan in
the Court. It is therefore obvious that the media is only uncritically
reporting what the Gujarat government's lawyer said in the note
liberally distributed to the press outside the Court.

While the Supreme Court observed that there was no room for allegations
and counter allegations at this late stage, the media coverage has
brazenly flouted this observation by reporting the totally baseless
allegations against social activist Teesta Setalvad and the organisation
she represents Citizen for Justice and Peace on the basis of the Gujarat
government's note circulated in the Court. This is all the more
reprehensible because Teesta Setalvad and Citizen for Justice and Peace
have neither been given a copy of the SIT report nor has their response
been sought in the matter.

The proceedings in the Supreme Court related to the response of the
Gujarat government and the amicus curiae Shri Harish Salve to the SIT
report. The very fact that the Supreme Court had to set up the SIT to
correct the miscarriage of justice due to the tardy investigation by the
state of Gujarat was highlighted in the court's observation that but for
the SIT investigation many more accused, who were freshly added, would
not have been brought to book. It was the untiring efforts of Teesta
Setalvad and the CJP and the National Human Rights Commission that
persuaded the Supreme Court to set up the SIT and on the basis of its
findings further arrests have been made of persons who held
administrative and ministerial positions in the government of Gujarat.


TOPIC: Dr Jai Maharaj is a sad Monkey

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 28 2010 6:16 am
From: chhotemianinshallah

Monday, June 05, 2006
Concept of Copyright in Ancient India

We received many inquiries about tradition of Copyrights in India (I
believe due to some of the recent controversies involving Indians and
People of Indian origin), and one of the researchers requested my
opinion on the concept of Copyright in ancient India.
The concept of proprietary right of an author over his work did not
exist in ancient India. All knowledge was meant for public utility and
not for any gain to the individual.

The reason is simple. Writing was believed to be the result of, Dhee
Sakti or intellectual power obtained only through God's grace. Naham
Karta, Harirkarta, I am not the doer, Hari or God is the Doer was the
humble belief of a scholar. Hence no commercial gain was attached to
the work of an author. Every book was the result of long standing
painful efforts which could not be counted in terms of money.

Nor did the great writers aspire for personal publicity or propaganda;
they cared for popularity of their subject. The book was a dedication
to God first and last. Hence most of the books in ancient times,
literary or non-literary, start with invocation to God or their
favorite deity and end with a colophon and benedictory prayer.

For centuries, palm-leaf books formed treasure of learning. They were
few and rare, before paper and printing made their appearance in
India. Access to books was rare. Hand-copying was in vogue. To get the
copies of books made and distributing them free was considered a
meritorious act. Even copyists thought their duty was a sacred one.

Merit of a book was established in the assembly of scholars in the
presence of a king or nobleman, who himself would be a well-versed
scholar. Once approved by the learned, the works were available to the

Oral system of learning prevailed and books were read to a attentive
listeners. Repeating, memorising and reproducing were more important;
book reading and writing were considered secondary. Books were not on
sale. Hence the question of copyright did not bother our past

Well known writers and poets got all the encouragement from the
rulers. A distinguished writer was invariably a court poet. He was
publicly felicitated from time to time after his bona-fides were
established. He used to get good remuneration in terms of land and

Works on poetics profusely quoted the original authors, with courtesy.
Popularity of his work was the greatest aspiration for a writer. The
reach and not the reward being their aim, the selfish idea of making
name or money by establishing authorship never struck the ancient
writers. Only books of universal appeal and eternal values have
survived in Sanskrit or regional languages. Proprietary rights have no
meaning to works of Vyasa, Valmiki, Kalidasa, Bhavabhuti and hundreds
of other writers.

If there were instances of plagiarism, there is no record of them.
Many court poets and writers lent their patron's name to their valued
works, willingly or through sheer obedience. It was left to critics of
later centuries, to establish the authentic authorship.

Amma's Column by Jyotsna Kamat

Brahmanism Controlled Masses Through Language

Dr. K. Jamanadas,

National Language of India

A lecturer friend of mine, who was trying to convince me that learning
becomes easy in student's mother tongue, was taken aback to hear from
me that India does not have a mother tongue, it has mother tongues.
Does India have a national language? Presumably, it does, and it is
Hindi. How it came to become a national language is described by Dr.
Ambedkar who was present in the Congress Party meeting as Chairman of
the Drafting Committee when the Draft Constitution of India was being
considered, on the issue of adopting Hindi as the National language:

"...There was no article which proved more controversial than Article
115 which deals with the question. No article produced more
opposition. No article more heat. After a prolonged discussion when
the question was put, the vote was 78 against 78. The tie could not be
resolved. After a long time when the question was put to the party
meeting the result was 77 against 78 for Hindi. Hindi won its place as
a national language by one vote. I am stating these facts from my
personal knowledge. ..." [Ambedkar B. R., Thoughts on Linguistic
States, Writings & Speeches, Maharashtra Govt., 1989, vol. 1, p. 148]

It is not known, whether the member had gone out in the mean time and
was absent during voting the second time, but surely it does not speak
highly of a language to have been declared as "National" under such
circumstances. This is specially so, when in practice, whole of India
thinks in English, may be it is Law, Medicine, Sports, Commerce,
Accounting, Cinema, Literature, Poetry or any other field of life. In
the homes of elites, English is not only spoken by children and
servants but also their pets like cats and dogs.

Language Problem of India

The question of language is a tricky problem in India. India is a vast
country. True. It was much vaster in ancient times. Now it has been
divided into three countries. In India itself, there are numerous
languages. Some of them are official languages and some are struggling
to become official. The country is divided into provinces on the basis
of language. Gandhiji had promised to do that before independence. So
it was done. The strangest thing is that the people fight among
themselves on the basis of language, as if the linguistic provinces
are two different nations. Dr. Ambedkar had warned that there is a
very thin line between linguistic provinces and linguistic nations and
he had suggested some safeguards and remedies to prevent the calamity
of converting the linguistic provinces into linguistic nations.
Unfortunately no heed was paid to his wise advice. We have to consider
whether India was always having multiple languages, and why there are
so many languages in India and why does the speech differ every few

Origin of language

Itihasacharya V. K. Rajwade explained that Language originated from
sound, script originated from pictures, expression from natural body
movements and utensils from the figures seen. All this was invented by
the wisdom of man himself by hard work of trial and error, and not due
to any imaginary gods or asuras in imaginary heaven or hell. That
voice originated from damaru of Shankara, Gandhaba-kanya taught the
art of drawing pictures, acting was taught by some kinnara, and making
of utensils was taught by some imaginary vishwakarma are all myth,
fantasy and a pack of lies, nothing is divine, all these arts are
acquired by man by efforts and by learning from trial and error.
[Rajwade V. K., bharatiya vivah sansthe cha itihas, marathi, p. 106]

Language of masses was different

Mr. Nair explains quoting authorities, that language of the masses is
different from that of the "classes". This difference is calculated by
the elites for establishing and maintaining their supremacy. As Nair
quotes Lapier:

"A language is a system of cultural definition whereby meanings are
assigned to a great variety of specific sound combinations thereof and
among a literate people, graphic representations thereof. But the
members of the society seldom speak or even write in terms of the
culturally designated definitions. They speak and write in some
special vernacular which differs both quantitatively and qualitatively
from the official language i.e. from the language as embodied among a
literate people in dictionaries, manuals of grammar and the like".
[`Theory of social control' p. 261, quoted by Nair B. N., "The Dynamic
Brahmin", p.68]

Was Sanskrit a spoken language?

Contrary to the recent hindutwavadi propaganda, it is a well
established fact that Sanskrit was never a spoken language:

"Let us remember that Sanskrit as its meaning indicates was never a
spoken language and that it was only a purified version of the
language that was in popular usage such as Prakrit, and that its
refinement and the codification of grammar in an unalterable form was
the work of grammarians like Panini." [Nair B. N., "The Dynamic
Brahmin", p.67]

Even strong protagonists like Pandit Mishra aver that it was a spoken
language but the "spoken" means, it was spoken by "shishtas" i.e.
elite (meaning Brahmins) alone. Rest of the masses were speaking
Prakrit. [Mishra, p.376] Even in late Sanskrit drammas, as is well
known, the charectors of higher castes speak Sanskrit, and the others
speak Prakrit. So speech depended on the caste.

Views of Prof. Rhys Davids

His opinion is perhaps the consensus opinion and based upon deep study
of scriptures, sculptures and epigraphs both Brahmanical as well as
Buddhistic. He observes:

"... Priests have preserved for us, not so much the opinions the
people actually held, as the opinions the priests wished them to
hold. ... What had happened with respect to religious belief is on a
par with what had happened with respect to language. From Takkasila
all the way down to Champa no one spoke Sanskrit. The living language,
everywhere, was a sort of Pali. Many of the old Vedic words were
retained in more easily pronounceable forms. Many new words had been
formed, on analogy, from the existing stock of roots. Many other new
word had been adopted from non- Aryan form of speech. Many Aryan
words, which do not happen to occur in the Vedic texts, had
nevertheless survived in popular use. And mean while, in the schools
of the priests, and there only, a knowledge of the Vedic language
(which we often call Sanskrit) was kept up. But even this Sanskrit of
the schools had progressed, as some would say, or had degenerated, as
others would say, from the Vedic standard. And the Sanskrit in actual
use in the as it is from the so- called classical Sanskrit of the post
Buddhistic poems and plays." [Rhys Davids, Buddhist India, p. 211 ff.,
emphasis ours]

He avers that, outside the schools of the priests, the curious and
interesting beliefs recorded in the Rig Veda had practically little
effect, and Vedic theosophy was never a popular faith. Vedic rituals
are not of simpler faith, and are advanced. The gods of the older
system - the dread Mother Earth, the dryads and the dragons, the dog-
star, even the moon the sun have been cast into the shade by the new
gods of the fire, the exciting drink, and the thunderstorm. The
mystery and the magic of the ritual of the sacrifice had complications
and expense. [Rhys Davids, Buddhist India, p. 211 ff.]

Max Muller, who believed that thoughts in Rigveda were primitive, as
these thoughts are so bizarre and absurd that they cannot be
considered as advanced, and one is so accustomed to consider the
priesthood as the great obstacle to any way of reform in India, he
averred, that it is difficult to believe that the Brahmins could ever,
as a class have championed the newer views. Rhys Davids, disagreeing
with Max Muller, believed that the beliefs recorded in the Rig Veda
are not primitive or original, as proved by comparison with evolution
of religious beliefs elsewhere. These beliefs were in the view of the
men who formulated them, a kind of advance on the previous ideas. And
when the Rig Veda was finally closed there were many other beliefs,
commonly held among the Aryans in India, but not represented in that
Veda. [Rhys Davids, Buddhist India, p. 211 ff.]

Social Control through language

The so called "purity" of Sanskrit makes it a dead language, may be
true, but that was the intention of the users, to safeguard their own
supremacy over the masses. Nair exclaims:

"... The maintenance of the purity of Sanskrit language since the days
of Panini until the present day is wonder of wonders that is largely
to be explained by the tenacity of the Brahmin to preserve it as such,
as the sacred language of status group even though their spoken
language was, by and large, the local languages or a mixture of the
two. This is not to admit that early Sanskrit before it reification
did not borrow words from Dravidian languages and made them its own.
As a matter of fact detailed research in the linguistic prehistory
India is bound to reveal many instances for such a fusion of Tamil
words into Sanskrit, especially that style of Sanskrit which came to
be used for limited secular purposes." [Nair B. N., "The Dynamic
Brahmin", p.68]

Sanskrit is static language

Ancient Tamil grammar Tolkapium, Nair says, was a "scientific treatise
on grammar" created to "safeguard the system of cultural definitions".
Brahmins maintained purity of their language because of the fear of
local language of masses. Why did the Brahmins try to keep their
language different than that of the masses? The reason is that they
wanted to maintain their supremacy through it. The process is
continuing even now. When elites speak of it a "pure" they actually
mean "static", and anything becomes static then it merits the title of
"dead". Mr. Nair explains the tendency:

"The purity of Sanskrit since the days it assumed its present
grammatical shape is to be explained by it static state, as the
restricted and sole vehicle of a sacerdotal class who jealously
preserved it from the corroding influence of non-Brahmin languages.
This they did out of fear as experience had already taught them that
in the mutual impact it was Sanskrit that stood the chance of loosing
its integrity and getting assimilated with the "Paisachi" language
which was widely prevalent in the subcontinent of India at the time of
their arrival. So then true to the spirit and apostolic motivation of
cultural conquerors they set about to conquer the speakers of the
language but also the latter's language itself. There is a hymn in the
Rig Veda which expresses this wish most solemnly and which may have
been recited by countless generations of Brahmins,"May we conquer the
ill-speaking man" [Nair B. N., "The Dynamic Brahmin", p.69]

Panini was ignorant about history: Rajwade

Itihasacharya Rajwade had done a lot of work not only in history but
also in linguistic field. He explained the code language of
Mahanubhavas as well as he explained origin of Sanskrit. He declared
that Panini had no knowledge of amalgamation and mixture of primitive
societies. He explained how the use of neuter gender in Sanskrit
originated from the mixture of two societies, one having a nasal twang
and other without it. While explaining grammar, Rajwade scientifically
uses the sociological concepts, and clarifies what Panini could not.
He declares boldly that Panini had no historical perspective and that
Panini's belief, that Sanskrit is the language of the devas and hence
anaadi, (having no beginning), as "eccentric". He avers that there is
not a single word or a phrase in whole of ashtadhyai of Panini, which
could suggest that Sanskrit originated from Vedic language. Panini
could not ever think that Sanskrit is the corrupt or hybrid form of
Vedic language. Because of this disregard of history, Panini thought
there was no world before Vedas, and no time before it. His thoughts
are thus opposed to progress and because of his ignorance, the society
became dejected about the future. There were many pre-vedic languages,
then Vedic, then Panini's Sanskrit, then Prakrit, and regional
languages like Marathi etc. is the progressive evolution, but because
of Panini's thoughts this was considered as degeneration. Panini's
ashtadhyai is the well known example of how the unhistorical attitude
causes the gross damage, he observes. [Rajwade V. K., bharatiya vivah
0sansthe cha itihas, marathi, introduction by S.A.Dange p. 21]

Ancient language of whole of India was Tamil

Rajwade acknowledges the Aryans have come from outside India and the
original indigenous residents were the Naagas. They were expert in
drawing pictures, they later married Vedic Aryans and it is customary
to include Naaga vamsha into the Aryan fold. He also acknowledges the
presence of non-Aryan languages like Asur bhasha, Dravida bhasha,
Chinese and Red Indian and African languages. [Rajwade V. K.,
bharatiya vivah sansthe cha itihas, marathi, p. 100]

Paishachi language was Tamil is the experts' view. Having made it
clear that Paishachi language was a very rich language, and very
widely spoken, let us see the experts' views on what was this
language. Before Aryans could influence things here, the language of
India was "Paishachi", which meant Tamil, and it was spoken from
Kashmir to Kanyakumari. Nair observes:

"According to Mr. Oldham there are ample evidences to show that the so-
call "Paisachi" language was spoken throughout India. He says "It is
evident that the old Sanskrit Grammarians considered the language of
the Dravidian countries to be connected with the vernaculars of
Northern India; and that in their opinion it was especially related to
the speech of those who as we have seen, were apparently descended
from the Asura tribes. Thus in the Shahasha Chandrika Lakshmidhara
says that the Paisachi language is spoken in the Paisachi countries of
Pandya, Kekaya Vahlika, Sahya, Nepala, Kuntala, Sudarsha, Bota,
Gandhara, Haiva and Kangana and there are Paisachi countries. Of all
the vernaculars the Paisachi is said to have contained the smallest
infusion of Sanskrit". [Nair B. N., "The Dynamic Brahmin", p.70]

Dr. K. M. Panikar has something equally interesting to say; "The
distribution of the indigenous races even today in the uplands of
South Bihar and in the eastern areas of Madhya Pradesh and the
persistence of the Bhils in the Aravalli and Vindhya ranges show that
as a population momentum the Aryan invasion ceased to have any
momentum after it reached the Gangetic valley. The gradual spread of
Hinduism all over India and with it the Aryan speech should not blind
us to the fact that even in North India outside the Punjab the Aryans
contributed only a racial strain. In Gujrat and in Maharashtra the neo-
Aryans were able to improve their language but in the Deccan and in
the South the Dravidian speech not only held its own but was able to
drive out the Austric and other linguistic elements. The spread of
Aryanism and Sanskrit, originally associated with Agastiyas' crossing
of the Vindhyas became, an accomplished fact only in the first
centuries of the Christian era as may be seen from the earlier
Paisachi tradition of the Satavahana Emperors of Pratishtan" [K. M.
Panikker, Geographical Factors in Indian History, 1955, quoted by Nair
B. N., "The Dynamic 0Brahmin", p.70]

Paisachi was Tamil

Nair confirms that Paishachi was Tamil.

"Now we may ask: what could have been this Paisachi language other
than the Tamil of pre-Tholkappian epoch? Indeed, the author of
Tholkappiyam (who is considered to be a Brahmin himself) felt as much
nervous about the vigour of Sanskrit or more possibly Prakrit as the
Brahmin Aryans felt consternation about the richness of this
"Paishachi" language. In spite of this, it is evident that the two
languages could not continue side by side in certain regions without
influencing one another for their mutual benefit. Hence it is that we
find that rules have been laid down in Tholkappiyam for the adoption
of Sanskrit words under certain conditions and subject to certain
rules while Prakrit itself normally absorbed certain Dravidian
0features." [Nair B. N., "The Dynamic Brahmin", p.70]

Ashokan India was speaking Prakrit and not Sanskrit Hindutwavadis like
to project that the main stream of Indian thought flows through
Sanskrit. This is totally false, as can be seen by historical
evidences of epigraphs. Original inscriptions were not Sanskrit. Apart
from Ashoka's edicts, the most ancient inscriptions of Arekmedu, which
talk of Buddha's teachings, were not in Sanskrit but in Prakrit.
Another European authority Dr. J. Filliozat is worth quoting in this

"Even much later, in the first half of the first century of Christian
era when appeared the first dated Tamil inscriptions, those of
Virapatnam - Arikamedu near Pondicherry, Sanskrit was not yet current
in Tamilanad as the inscriptions in an Indo-Aryan language found along
with the Tamil inscriptions are in Prakrit. These inscriptions are no
doubt very short and very few but we can at least be sure that they
are exactly comparable with those of Ceylon at the same epoch; here
also middle-Indian was employed and not Sanskrit. The characters of
these inscriptions around the beginning of the Christian era the same
and very similar in their shapes to the ancient Brahmi of Ashoka,
giving supplementary evidence of the importance of the contribution of
Ashoka's empire to the culture in the South. [Nair B. N., "The Dynamic
Brahmin", p.71]

As late as Pallava times, the earlier Pallava inscriptions were in
Prakrit and not Sanskrit.

Sangam literature

Not only the inscriptions, but even the classical Tamil literature of
second or third century was not Sanskrit, but Tamil. The same author

"If we now consider the ancient Tamil works, we find in almost all
some allusion to vedic or Brahmanic rites and the use of some Sanskrit
words though very few. When Indo Aryan words are adopted in Tamil in
Sangam literature they are more frequently borrowed form Prakrit forms
or with Prakritic features. Surely Sanskrit and Prakrit cultures were
known to some extent in Tamilanad but rather through Prakrit than
through Sanskrit. Massive influence of Sanskrit in Tamil literature
took place much later". [Dr. J. Filliozat on Tamil and Sanskrit in
South India, in Tamil Culture, vol. IV, No. 4, Oct. 1955 quoted by
Nair B. N., "The Dynamic Brahmin", p.71]

Sanskrit gained ground because it was sonorous Nair explains why
Sanskrit could catch up:

"Now going back to the base of our theoretical structure viz. local
Hinduism we find that Sanskrit language spread through ritualistic
practices introduced by the Brahmins in the "Gramakshetra" or village
temple. Ritualistic Sanskrit was mostly poetry and it was poetry in
the form of Manthras and stotras that first caught the profane ears of
the non- Brahmin temple worshipper. These Manthras and Stotras were
resonant with sonorous words and phrases and so replete which imagery
that when recited aloud they seldom failed to evoke strong feelings of
devotion in the minds of the hearer who knew the mythology behind this
majestic poetry. Here lies the beginnings of the social control of the
Brahmin through a language which was reified and strengthened to suit
their purposes." [Nair B. N., "The Dynamic Brahmin", p.72]

Nair further explains:

"As was pointed out earlier the spread of Sanskrit began with the
recital of Sanskrit poetry rich in resonant poetic forms and phrases,
e.g. Vedic hymns, strotras such as that by Shankaracharya. These
verses with their suggestive and powerful words were so much in
contrast with the soft and liquid sounds of the non-Aryan speeches
that as compared to the former, the equivalents in the latter failed
to evoke any feeling in the crowd. [Nair B. N., "The Dynamic Brahmin",

Hindi was retaining Sanskrit Influence

At a time, when Brahmins decided to divide the country on the basis of
language at the time of fall of Buddhism, they were careful enough to
maintain superiority of Sanskrit influence. As Nair quotes:

"In fact historically also the growth of Hindi, despite its
variations, has taken place in the Gangetic valley in such a way as to
retain the purity of sense and meaning of Sanskrit words. This will be
further seen by a study of the semantic changes that have taken places
in Sanskrit words after their absorption in other regional languages.
Viewed in this way, it is also clear why many orthodox Hindus are not
willing to accept Hindustani as the national language because it
contains a large strata of words from Persian, Arabic and Turkish
which were spoken by former cultural conquerors. The adoption of
Hindustani as the official language in place of Hindi would not be in
keeping with the Brahmanical revival that is making itself prominently
felt in India during the post-Independence period." [Nair B. N., "The
Dynamic Brahmin", p.75]

Trick of trigger phrases

Nair explains how Sanskrit has been the effective vehicle for the
spread of trigger phrases in Indian thought. The average educated
Indian, especially a Hindu, cannot easily recognise these artificial
trigger phrases and words in his speech, as he is unconsciously
habituated for centuries to use these as a matter of second nature for
him. In fact without these trigger words and phrases, he cannot find
the correct word or a substitute word or phrase which is free from
Sanskritic influence." [Nair B. N., "The Dynamic Brahmin", p.76]

Spread of Sanskrit

Nair explains, in the initial period, how Sanskrit spread so rapidly
and influenced the thought processes of the masses while it started
only as the language of ritual.:

"...The answer is simple enough. With the growth in power of Brahmin
priests in their temples there was also the growth the growth in their
importance and influence in the courts of kings and chieftains. The
Dharma Shastras were incorporated in the puranas at a time (about the
middle of the 4th century A.D.) when the Brahmins acquired the
position of a status-group within the caste hierarchy. ... The gradual
stages by which Sanskrit became powerful in the South is best
described by Dr. Filliozat. [Nair B. N., "The Dynamic Brahmin", p.77]

Dr. Filliozat's views are summarized below. Sanskrit words were
borrowed but Tamil scholars continued the use their own grammar. Most
known Sanskrit texts were Ayurveda and Jotishya, apart from Gita.
Tamil saints, who were non-brahmins, used ordinary Tamil words without
technical meaning, though Sanskrit ideas are alluded to. Their
compositions were devotional and not philosophical. Tamil was used
more till Shankara wrote on upanishadas etc. in c. 800 A.D. Thus Tamil
received double dose of Sanskrit words from north and south. Tamil
works of religious import were reinterpreted as Vedantic, and awarded
status of Vedas. [Nair B. N., "The Dynamic Brahmin", p.78]

Non-brahmin dignitaries were coopted

Tamil saint poets attained great fame at a later stage, but though men
like Nammalwar were denied the status of Kulapati of Vaishnavas only
because he was a non-brahmin, these saints were made use of to further
the cause of chaturvana, by declaring them as their own. Nair explains
the tendency:

"However, every time a non-Brahmin attained remarkable stature in the
assimilation of Brahmanical culture and produced some work of
intrinsic merit in his own language for the use of his fellowmen, the
Brahmins lost no time in giving the work a Sanskritic interpretation
as to disallow it an independent existence of its own and continued
esteem in popular mind. It is clearly due to the insecurity in the
Brahmin mind that leads them to adopt this strategy as is evident from
many modern instances. In fact it is not quite a well-known fact that
the orthodox Brahmins had at one time offered to Mahatma Gandhi the
choice of the acceptance of Brahminhood which he characteristically
refused. The fact that he was finally assassinated by a fanatic
Chitpavan Brahmin of Poona is more than significant of the suppressed
hostility of those caste-conscious Brahmins all over India who could
not share the enlightened views of that great soul." [Nair B. N., "The
Dynamic Brahmin", p.78]

Brahmanism flourished due to British rule

Nair explains how the British helped spread of Brahmanism throughout
India, and exclaims that the Brahmin succeeded in utilising the
Britishers as an unconscious tool for the strengthening of his social
control over masses by four streams of activity by the British
administration which directly contributed to the strength of all-India
Hinduism under Brahmin leadership. Dr. M. N. Srinivas classified them
as follows.

(a)systematic reconstruction of Indian history
(b)development of mass communication media, films of mythological
themes and Brahmanical control over press. To this could now be added
electronic media and mythological serials.
(c)growth of movements against defects in Brahmanical religion like
untouchability, child marriage etc.
(d)study of Sanskrit literature and philosophy

Nair exclaims that, thus the Brahmin discovered his soul and saw with
clear eyes the beauty and ugliness of his own handiwork in India, and
the regrouping of social forces that took place under the British
regime. [Nair B. N., "The Dynamic Brahmin", p. 80]

Christians not influenced by the sanskritisation

Concluding, Nair mentions another weakness of Sanskrit: "And this
concerns its failure to leave the psychological impress on the
Christian community in India. Christianity of the real proselytising
variety came to India and drew it strength only during the British
occupation so that it must be considered intrinsically as the religion
of a cultural and political conqueror. The conversions of Christianity
were mostly from people who were outside the pale of Brahmanical
Hinduism so that the cultural influences of Sanskrit were not felt by
these people to any extent before conversion or after it." [Nair B.
N., "The Dynamic Brahmin", p.81]

Sanskrit has no relevance with daily life

With rapid Sanskritisation, Nair feels, it lost relevance in daily
life of people, specially the non-Brahmins:

"... The 'weltanschauung' [i.e. outlook of world] of the South Indian
(non-Brahmin) was rendered highly unreal and abstract infusion of
Sanskrit words created a disjunction between the symbol and the
phenomenon. It was not merely the haphazard spread of Sanskrit or its
deliberate and principal use for sacerdotal purposes that brought
about this mental situation but also to a large extent the esotericism
that was imported in the use of the language, the word-meanings, etc.
And above all it was a leisure class (only) that used Sanskrit. As
Prof. Kosambi so aptly puts it "The language suffered from its long
monopolistic association with a class that had no direct interest in
technique, manual operations, trade agreements, contracts or surveys.
The class did have leisure enough to write their tenuous ideas in a
tortuous manner above the reach of the common herd and to unravel them
from such writings. Prose virtually disappeared from high literary
Sanskrit. Words that survived in literary usage took on so many
supplementary meanings that a good Sanskrit text cannot be interpreted
without a commentary. The glosses are often demonstrably wrong and
succeed in only confusing the text which has to be restored by
critical methods first developed in Europe. The older terms used in
administration (e.g. in Arathashastra and Copperplate charters) were
forgotten. In some cases, where obscurity was deliberately imposed
(i.e. the Tantric mysticism) cult and meaning of the text vanished
together. There were astounding mnenomic developments but they too
contributed to the same end by over-specialization and particular
jargons for every discipline". (An Introduction to the Study of Indian
History pp.225-266) [Nair B. N., "The Dynamic Brahmin", p.85]

Sanskrit has nothing to do with Computer

Some people, whose forefathers themselves were the sufferers of this
language, try to take pride and seek solace in believing that Sanskrit
is a good language for computer. The inventor of this myth seems to be
a person, not only with perverted sense of egotism about his heritage
and ignorance of his ancestral history, but also an urge to befool the
gullible masses of India. The minimum expectation from such scholars
would be to pause and think how a language which was not allowed to be
learned by a scholar like Dr. Ambedkar can ever be considered a good
language worth learning by masses. It is language of control by a few
over multitude. It is a language of oppression.

It has nothing to do with computer language, which is a binary
language, a language of 1s and 0s, a language of ON and OFF. After all
a computer is nothing but a collection of millions of fast acting
switches. It is by creating computer codes like EBCDIC and ASCII,
various alphabets can be assigned numbers, and these numbers
representing alphabets are converted into binary for computer
processing. Any language on the earth is equally good or equally bad
for the computer purpose. Those who claim that Sanskrit is a useful
language for computer have got a cruel and malevolent intention of
projecting the misdeeds of their forefathers. A scholar in them is
dead, only a caste superiority prejudice is seen in their such

Most unfortunate thing is that so called scholars from among the
sufferers of tyranny of this language, seem to have a liking of this
language through misconceived ideas about it. Their multiple degrees
are worth throwing away in a dust bin. Just by becoming learned in
Sanskrit does not qualify anybody to receive respect, you have to be
born. Read Dasbodh of Ramdas, if you have doubts. The language which
ruined this country, is respected by these so called scholars. It was
Ramdas himself, a Brahmanical social activist, who coined a phrase for
such people in Marathi- "padhat murkh", the nearest English rendering
of it should a learned fool.

What did the propagators of this language give to the people of this
country apart from disintegration and slavery of centuries. What kind
of society they have produced? A society full of discriminations where
more than half of people are unfit even for a touch, another one third
driven to forests and another group whose occupation is crime, a
society where prostitution is practiced in the name of God and
religion, a society where suicide is sacrosanct, a society where
uttering obscene abuses is a part of religion, a society where
daughters are murdered immediately after birth, a society where widows
are burnt on the funeral pyre of their husbands, a society where a
vast section of people are deprived from holding any property, holding
any arms, getting any education, a society where taking a marriage
procession on a public road brings atrocities, murder, rape and arson,
a society where nearly the whole country uses the public roads as a
toilet. And one expects these very people the sufferers of this
extreme exploitation to regard this language as holy and sacrosanct.
One only has to remember the words of Theludesus: It may be your
interest to be our masters, how can it be ours to be your slaves.
Still this is probably the only country in the world where the slaves
are enjoying their slavery and prisoners guard the prison gates and
display their fetters as ornaments.

There are people who try to propagate that the Sanskrit language is
the original language which was gifted by God (to Brahmins of India).
Despite all other languages in the world, to consider one particular
language as "god given" is the worst form of imprudence and arrogance,
to say the least; and is not only derogatory to the inventor of the
idea, but also marks the god with partiality to a caste.

Importance of Pali

After obtaining Buddhahood, the Buddha preached orally for the rest of
His life of 45 years, and these preachings were learned by heart by
the disciples. They were compiled into Tripitakas in various sangitis,
the first being 3 months after Mahaparinirvana, second 100 years
later, third in the reign of Ashoka, after which Bhikkus were sent to
various places. Mahinda and Sanghmitra went to Simhala. All these
years, all the preachings were preserved by oral tradition. It was
after this that they were reduced in writings, in Simhala during the
reign of Vattagamini (29 B.C.). This was fourth sangiti. The Buddha
did not insist for any particular language, and everybody learned them
in their own language. As a matter of fact, Tripitaka was preserved in
many languages. According to one famous Tibetan tradition, the
scriptures of Sarvasti-vadis' are in Sanskrit, those of Mahasanghikas
in Prakrit, those of Mahasammaitis in Apbhramsha and those of
Sthaviras in Paishachi. Today we know the word Pali as a name of
language. It contains whole of Tripitaka and Anupitaka of Thervada.
Originally, this word meant Original Teachings of the Buddha or
Tripitaka. Later it denoted the language of them. Thus the use of term
Pali as a name of language is rather new, and more in vogue since 19th
century. The language, we call today Pali is actually known
traditionally as Magadhi. It is well known that the Buddha had refused
permission to use Sanskrit as the vehicle of teachings, and declared
it as a minor crime. [Rahul Sankrutyayana, "pali sahitya ka itihas",
(hindi), 3rd ed., 1992, Uttar Pradesh Hindi Sansthan, Lukhnow, p.5]

Dr. Bhagchandra Jain also mentions that, Pali literature is rendered
in writing in Srilanka in First Century B.C., in the reign of
Vattagamini. Before that it was prevalent by oral recitation. This is
the reason why we find the compilation of many references could not be
made in chronological order in Pali literature. Some references are
twisted to suit them, some are omitted and some are added. Even then,
the available material is historically and culturally important. The
valuation from this angle is still not done. ["Chatushatakam"
Translator Editor : Dr. Bhagchandra Jain, Alok Parakashan Nagpur 1971
(Hindi), p.4] The study of Aryan languages in the middle age is
complete only after scientific study of Pali Language. Pali has
affected not only the modern Indian Languages but it has enough
contribution in the development of modern languages in countries like
Sinhala, Burma, Thailand, China, Japan, Tibet, Magnolia etc. and Pali
literature has proved to be a greatest help in fixing the dates of
ancient history. [Jain, p.6] L. M. Joshi also describes the influence
of Buddhist language and script as follows:

"... Indian paleography and epigraphy owe a great deal to the original
and pioneer inspiration of Buddhism and its lithic records. The
earliest historical inscriptions of India are the Buddhist
inscriptions. The dhammalipi of Ashoka became the mother of all
subsequent varieties of Brahmi and its derivative Indian scripts." [L.
M. Joshi, Aspects of Buddhism in Indian History, p.32]

Study of Sanskrit

Rigveda is said to be the most ancient book. Study of language started
in west after William Jones translated Shakuntalam into English. In
India, modern study of languages started after Ramkrishna Bhandarkar
opined through "Wilson philological lectures" that Sanskrit is the
original language and all the Indian as well as foreign languages
originated from it. [Mishra, p.351] Greek Helenic language also has
some similarities with Sanskrit. ["Vangmay Vimarsha" by Pundit
Vishwanath Prasad Mishra, Hindi Sahitya Kutir, Varanasi - 1, v.samvat
2023, p.358]

Some relate the Dravidian languages with Australian languages. After
Mohonjodaro excavation, now they are being related with Sumerian
languages. [Mishra, p.355] Word "mund" is used in Vayu Purana and in
Mahabharata it is used for a caste. The word "shabar" is still
ancient, which is found in Ateriya Brahman. Their language is called
Munda, Kol, or Shabar. There is a great influence of these languages
over several Indian languages, various examples are quoted by the
author of this influence on Bihari, Gujarathi and Madhyapradesh
language. [Mishra, p. 363]

Dravidian languages

Kumaril Bhatt made only two divisions Dravida and Andhra, But the
modern scholars have made following classification of Dravidian

1. Dravida- with (a) Tamil (b) Kannada (c) Tulu (d) Kodagu (e) Tod
2. Andhra- (a) Telugu
3. Central- with (a) Gondi (b) Kurukha (c) Kui (d) Kolami Tamil has
two forms. A poetic language called "shen", the other is called
"kodun", Malayalam is supposed to be elder daughter of Tamil.
Influence of Sanskrit is less on Tamil contrarily Malayalam has great
influence. [Mishra, p.365]

Languages of Indian Branch

There are two views. The scholars of ancient school believe that
original language is Sanskrit, form which all Aryan languages
originated, Prakrit from Sanskrit, Apbhransha from Prakrit and
regional languages from Apbhransha. New linguistic scholars believe
that Vedic Sanskrit itself originated from some original Aryan
language. On one side Vedic language, modified or Sanskrit was used
and on the other hand, unmodified or Prakrit was being used as a
language of common speech. Both these originated from some common
root. Sanskrit, the spoken language of elite (shistas - meaning
Brahmins), and Prakrit, the spoken language of the masses are sisters
of each other. That Prakrit is termed by them as "Aadim Prakrit"
meaning original Prakrit. From this evolved all other Prakrit
languages. Some people believe that, from original Prakrit the
classical Sanskrit, i.e Sanskrit of literature, evolved. But some
believe that classical Sanskrit evolved from Vedic Sanskrit through
stages of Brahmanas, Upanishadas, Kavyas, and Gathas. The divisions of
Indian languages made in "pratisakhyas" are considered by them as
regional forms of the original Prakrit - "Oudichya" (Northern),
"Pratichya" (western), "Dakshinatya" (southern) "Madhya
Deshiya" (bichali) and "Prachya" (eastern). Late Dr. Bhandarkar
believed in Evolution of Prakrit from Sanskrit. He thought Classical
and Vedic Sanskrit together as the original source of Prakrits. But
scholars have discarded this old view and they now believe Original
Prakrit as the source. [Pandit Vishanath Prasad Mishra, "Vangamay
Vimarsha", (hindi), published by Hindi Sahitya Kutir, Varanasi - 1,
5th edition, Vikram Samat 2023, p.371]


Prakrit can be divided into three stages if we consider Apbhransha as
a late Prakrit. There were three periods in its evolution. They are
ancient, middle are late Prakrit. [Mishra, p.376] Why it is called
Prakrit? 1. Prakriti means nature, so Prakrit a language of more
people. 2. Comparing Sanskrit and Prakrit, Sanskrit is refined and
Prakrit is unrefined. 3. Jains have defined Prakrit as the most
ancient language. They divide the word into 'Prak' and 'krit', and
they believe all other languages originated from Prakrit

Some people term all the languages placed under ancient Prakrit as
Pali, but we find there are many ancient Prakrits other than Pali.
Edicts of Ashoka, Hinayani Tripitakas, Mahavamsha, Jatakas etc.,
ancient Jain Sutras, and Prakrits of ancient dramas are grouped under
this language. [Mishra, p.377]

The language of Ashoka's edicts and Hinayana Scriptures has come to be
known as Pali. The language of scriptures is considered by Buddhists
as "Magadhi". [Mishra, p.377]

Ashoka Edicts

The language of Ashoka's Edicts differs in different areas. At least
two different types can be discerned. As the Buddha was from Magadha,
and he preached in people's language, it should be Magadhi, but after
due consideration, it seems that it was not Magadhi but general
Prakrit, because later Buddhist scriptures do not show the traits seen
in Magadhi Prakrit. [Mishra, p.377] Therefore, His preachings were in
"Pacchahi" language from which was originated Shouriseni Prakrit of
the middle lands and Maharashtri Prakrit of the whole country. Ashoka
also considered it the main language. The language of Jain sutras is
considered Ardha Magadhi, which should mean that it has got traits of
both Shourseni and Magadhi thus it is clear that the language of
middle country was the basis of evolution of Prakrit. [Mishra, p.378]

Middle Prakrit consists of Maharashtri Prakrit, Prakrit used in
dramas, Prakrit of later Jain scriptures and Paishyachi i.e language
of Brihat Katha.

Maharashtri had more respect among the Prakrits. The Maharashtri name
could be because of region like Shourseni or Magadhi but, it should be
considered as Maha as vast and Maharashtri means language of the
greater part of the country as becomes clear from a verse of Dandin.
[Mishra, p.379]


Apbhramsha originated from Prakrit. Grammarians consider two forms of
it, "Nagar" and "Brachad". Sindhi evolved from Brached and Gujarathi,
Rajasthani, Braji etc. evolved from Nagar. There are two types
according to time. Early and late. Avahatha can be considered a late
type. The Apbhramsha more nearer to modern regional languages can be
placed in late type of Apbhramsha. [Mishra, p.382]

Modern Regional Languages of India

They originated after Apbhramsha. It can not be said definitely when
the poetry in regional languages started. But looking at the late
Apbhramsha, it is clear that the words of modern regional languages
are seen in them. Therefore, the time of the origin of regional
languages must be placed in Tenth or Eleventh centuries of Vikram Era.
[Mishra, p.383]


Hindi was the first regional language to originate. Its ancient roots
are in Shourseni and also Magadhi or Ardha Magadhi. Name Hindi
originated from Hindu. Others do not agree with this. Hindu is a name
given by Muslims.

There are four types, Khadiboli, Rekhata, Nagari, and high Hindi.
[Mishra, p.389] Urdu evolved from language soldiers spoke in the
market, and thus it is basically hindi only. [Mishra, p.391] After
Britishers came Hindi got mixed with words from all languages and was
called "Hindusthani". [Mishra, p.393]

Classification of Hindi

1. Western (paschimi) (a) Khadi boli -

(i) Urdu - of three types of Northern (Uttari) - Rekhati; Dehalvi; and
Lakhanavi. And one Southern (Dakhani)
(ii) Mixed
(iii)High Hindi (uccha hindi)

(b)Bangaru (c) Central (Madyavarti) with

(i) Braji (ii) Kanauji and (iii) Bundeli

2. Eastern (Purvi) : - (a) Avadhi - with (i) Western (Pashimi) and
(ii) Eastern (Purvi) (b) Bagheli (c) Chattisgadhi

Scripts of India

Only two scripts were in vogue at the time of Ashoka, Brahmi and
Kharoshti. On the basis of available Brahmi inscriptions, the time of
Brahmi script is considered to be from 500 B.C. to 350 A.D. Two styles
were visible in Brahmi in 4th century A.D. which are called Northern
and Southern. The scripts evolved from Northern are, Gupta, Kutil,
Nagari, Sharda and Bangala, and from Southern are Western, Madhya
Pradeshi, Telugu Kannad, Grantha, Kalinga and Tamil. [Mishra, p.454]

Script of Gupta kings is termed as "Gupta", from which evolved in
sixth to nineth century, a script called "Kutil". From tenth century
onwards, we find traces of "Nagari" in North India. In South, it was
called "Nanda Nagari" and appeared around 8th century. From Nagari
evolved the Bangala, Kaithi, Gujarathi, Marathi languages. Sharda of
Kashmir evolved from Kutil. From Sharada evolved, Takkari and
Gurumukhi. From early Bangala script originated, present Bangala,
Maithili and Udiya. [Mishra, p.454] Out of Southern Styles, script
found in Kathiyavad, Gujarath, Nashik, Khandesh, Satara etc. is termed
Western. That found in Madhya Pradesh, North Hyderabad and Bundelkhand
is called Madhya Pradeshi, and Telgu-Kannad script was precursor of
present Telgu and Kannad scripts. A different script called "Grantha"
was being used to write Sanskrit works, from it evolved Malayalam and
Tulu. Kalinga script was in Kalinga. [Mishra, p.455]

About origin of word Nagari, there are different views. One view is it
was Urban (meaning Nagari) script. Some connect it with Nagar
Brahmins. There are others who consider that, previous to image
worship, devas were worshiped in the form of Yantras, the symbols of
which were called "Devnagar" giving the name to the script. [Mishra, p.

How India got divided into numerous linguistic areas

The picture of diversity of languages and scripts in India - past and
present. How India, which, during Buddhist period, had only one main
language and one or two main scripts, got divided into various groups
with their intrinsic rivalries? This is the main problem, which nobody
bothers to refer to. After the fall of Buddhism, Brahmanism not only
divided the people into numerous castes with graded inequality and
numerous tiny dynasties with rivalries due to sense of high and low,
but also divided the whole country into small segments. It taught that
each kingdom, though small, is a different country. The result was
that the feeling of oneness was never present among the Hindus. There
never arose a feeling on one India among them. In scriptures, we find
definitions of 'foreign' lands at many places. They denote the
mischief caused. [Surendra Kumar Adnyat - "hindu dharm ne bachaya ya
pitavaya", Sarita Mukta Reprint vol. 7, p. 24]

Brahspati says that if there is a big river or a big mountain in
between, or if the language differs, then the countries on either side
should be treated as foreign lands of each other. Some say after 60
yojanas, new country starts, some say 40 and some say 30 yojanas. (One
yojana equals 8 miles). Brahaspati mentions another opinion using the
word 'videsh' in place of 'deshantara', that the videsh is that where
one can not get messages within one day. [Surendra Kumar Adnyat -
"hindu dharm ne bachaya ya pitavaya", Sarita Mukta Reprint vol. 7, p.

Dharmasindhu defines 'deshantara' or 'videsh' on the basis of caste.
For a brahmin distance of 20 yojanas from his residence, is
'deshantara', for ksatriya it is 24 yojanas, for a vaishya it is 30
yojanas and for a sudra it is 60 yojanas. If a big mountain or river
comes in way or if there is difference of language, then it is a
different country, as said by some people. It only means, in such an
event, even though the distance is less than 20, 24, 30 or 60 yojanas,
even then it is 'deshantara' for brahmins, ksatriyas, vaishyas and
sudras respectively. [Surendra Kumar Adnyat - "hindu dharm ne bachaya
ya pitavaya", Sarita Mukta Reprint vol. 7, p. 24]

Thus as per scriptures, at the most 480 miles is the limit of your
country, every thing beyond is a foreign land. Even today, we use the
word 'pardeshi' meaning a foreigner for a resident of a town, some
distance away. When the sastras declare all areas except in immediate
vicinity are alien lands, how can one expect the rajas and subjects
consider other fellow Indians as their own in this vast land.

Kalivarjya was the method of control

That the kalivarj is the method of Brahmins to tackle with the
Buddhist influence over the masses and impose their supremacy. They
changed their laws without actually condemning them. All laws and
rules, were amended including Civil, Criminal, Revenue and personal
laws. It is not properly realized by the masses, that King was not the
Law maker; he had no legislative powers, contrary to the popular
belief. He was only the executive head and had a responsibility to
implement the laws made by the Brahmins. At the most he could only
legislate on revenue matters, that too, as per the rules already laid
down. He had some judicial powers, but that too, he could not pass
judgment against the law given by the Brahmins.

Who suffered in Kalivarjya

In Kalivarjya, main law was against sea voyage. That is how the sea
worthy races of Pallava and Chola countries suffered. All the trade
that was being conducted through the sea stopped. Who suffered? Not
the Brahmins, surely. It will be clear, if we take a look at the
products of export. Most of the products of export were based on the
agriculture, horticulture, animal husbandry and forest economy. Even
the textile industry which had reached a high acclaim in foreign
lands, was based on cotton, silk and wool. All these occupations were
in the hands of working classes, who were all doomed to be shudras.
All these industries suffered. All these castes in the village economy
suffered. All these occupational groups, which were prosperous during
the Buddhist rule, were degraded into castes, due to rigid caste rules

The mobility of the professions was stopped. Telis, who extracted oil
from oil seeds, Malis, who grew the vegetables, the Dhangars, who
reared the goats and lambs, Sutars, who made and repaired the farmers'
implements, Kumar, who suppled earthen pots to villagers and Mahars
and Mangs who protected the villages from strangers, all were
segregated. All these professions became hereditary and social
intercourse among them stopped. Not only this caused multiplicity of
castes, and regional variations in languages but also a different
language for various castes. This ultimately lead to present situation
of confusion, distrust and hostility among the people destroying
social fabric of country, for which we have only to thank the fall of
Buddhism and rise of Brahmanism.

Send e-mail to with questions or comments about
this web site.
No Copyright © 2000 dalit e-forum Last modified: March 28, 2000

Vishwanath Kashinath Rajwade
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Vishwanath Kashinath Rajwade

Born 1863

Died 1926


Datto Vaman Potdar

Vishwanath Kashinath Rajwade (Marathi: विश्वनाथ काशिनाथ राजवाडे) (24th
June,1863-31st December,1926), popularly known as Itihasacharya
Rajwade was an eminent historian, scholar, writer, commentator and
orator from Maharashtra. He is considered to be the first in real
sense to undertake an immense research of Maratha History by visiting
hundreds of villages and historical places allover India and gathering
thousands of genuine historical papers. He is also known to be the
notable commentator on the various aspects of world history. He was
the founder member of Itihas Sanshodhak Mandal, Pune. His disciples
include historians like Datto Vaman Potdar and G.H.Khare.

Eminent Historian, R.S. Sharma writes of him as, "With his
unadulterated passion for research, V.K.Rajwade went from village to
village in Maharashtra in search of Sanskrit manuscripts and sources
of Maratha history; which were published in twenty-two volumes."[1]

Historian Rajwade should not be confused with 'Ahitagni' Shankar
Ramchandra Rajwade; Ahitaagni Rajwade was a vedic scholar.

The Indian History Congress has constituted Vishwanath Kashinath
Rajwade Award for life-long service and contribution to Indian

Early life

Rajwade's grandfather was the Killedar of fort Lohagad in the province
of Pune. He was Born in the village Varsai situated in Raigad district
of Maharashtra state. Since his father died in his childhood, he was
brought up by his uncle at Vadgaon near Pune. He did his matriculation
in January 1882 and graduation in 1890 from Deccan College, Pune.
During his graduation he came in close contact of the well known
scholar Dr. Ramkrishna Gopal Bhandarkar who was then a professor in
Deccan College (Pune). Sooner or Later he was also impressed with the
works by Vishnushastri Krushnashastri Chiplunkar, Parshuram Tatya
Godbole and Kavyeitihas sangrahakar Sane.

Later Life & Contribution

After his graduation Rajwade got married but subsequently lost his
wife in early young age. Thereafter he chose to dedicate his life to
history and research. In 1895 he started a Marathi magazine called
'Bhashantar' (meaning 'translation') through which he brought works of
western historians and scholars like Plato, Aristotle, Edward Gibbon
and Indian scholars like Shankaracharya etc. in Marathi.
Simultaneously, by writing articles and delivering speeches he also
started educating Marathi people on several subjects like history of
Marathas, history of world, history of Marathi literature, grammar of
Marathi and Sanskrit languages. In 1910, he founded Bharat Itihas
Sanshodhak Mandal at Pune and kept all his works and historical papers
gathered by him in the custody of the Mandal. After his sudden death
in 1926, 'Rajwade Sanshodhak Mandal' was founded at Dhule and his
works and collection of his later life was kept there. Both the
institutions have been contributing in the field of history and
culture of India till the date.

His works in Marathi as a Researcher / Historian / Editor

Marathyanchya Itihasachi Sadhane (History of Marathas) – 22 Volumes
Radha Madhav Vilas Champu (Biodgraphy of Shahaji)
Aitihasik Prastavana (Historical Prefaces)
Rajwade Lekhsangraha (Collection of essays) - 3 Volumes
Bharatiya Vivah Sansthecha Itihas (History of Indian matrimony)
Dnyaneshwari (Editor)


^ Sharma, R.S. (2009). Rethinking India's Past. Oxford University
Press. ISBN 978-0195697872.
'Rajwade Lekhsangraha' (Marathi) published by Sahitya Akademi

External links

Historian V K Rajawade's works to hit the stands at

Commentary on some of Rajwade's work
Dr.Jyotsna Kamat on V.K. Rajwade

Historian V K Rajawade's works to hit the stands
Sumedha Raikar-Mhatre

MUMBAI, DEC 31: A multi-layered look at the social, cultural and
intellectual making of Maharashtra will be on the stands soon. A 13
volume compilation of the writings of Itihasacharya V K Rajwade
(1863-1926), parts of which have been published as individual books,
has been put together by the Dhule-based Rajwade Sanshodhan Mandal,
comprising intellectuals, scholars and followers of Rajwade.
This was recently announced at a function held at Y B Chavan
auditorium here. Although the Mandal started work on the compilation
almost six years ago. the project languished due to lack of funds.
However, the editorial board, led by Dr M B Shah, persevered and
managed the task minus a government grant.

Each year, the Mandal commemorates Rajwade's death anniversary on
December 31. Originally from Pune, Rajwade spent the last years of his
life in Dhule. He is reputed for his 27 volumes on source material of
Maratha history. Rajwade's book on the history of the institution of
marriage is also considered a milestone. Hedied before realising his
dream of penning the history of the Aryas.

Rajwade's writings encompassed several themes, including a study of
the Marathi language, saint literature of Maharashtra as well as
different types of dictionaries. The Mandal chose specialists from 13
disciplines like Y D Phadke, Ram Shevalkar, Bhaskar Bhole and Kalyan
Kale from all over the state to pen the prefaces.

Rajwade's study of the Marathi language is considered a classic. In
the process of studying the colonial past of the state, he prepared an
exhaustive list of village names, surnames and caste names. The
Sanskrit origin of each name throws light on the sociological pattern
of the time. For instance, the origin of Vaishyagram and Yesgaon can
be traced to the Vaishya caste. He also recorded that several village
names originated from the Sanskrit terms for animals: Jalgaon from
Jaluka and Khanapur from Khanak (rat). He also prepared a list of
1,500 names of villages which originated from names of medicinal
herbs, like Erandolfrom Erand.

Rajwade also showed that the evolution of names was a benchmark of
social status. Bhishma graduated to Bhikham, Bhikhamsheth and even
Vikramsheth. Similarly, Bhikshu became Bhikkhu, then Bhiku.

Rajwade's vast scholarship even extended to a dictionary of verbal
roots (dhatu), tracing the origin of words. He also prepared a list of
150 key intellectuals of Maharashtra living in the period between 1898
and 1913. He shortlisted 45 persons from this list and compared them
to their contemporaries in Britain. It is recorded that he felt that
Indian `achievers' compared poorly in comparison!

Copyright © 1999 Indian Express Newspapers (Bombay) Ltd.

Bharat Itihas Sanshodhak Mandal
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bharat Itihas Sanshodhak Mandal, Pune
Bharat Itihas Sanshodhak Mandal, popularly known as Itihas Sanshodhak
Mandal or just 'Mandal', is an Indian institute providing resources
and training for historical researchers. It is located at Pune in
Maharashtra state. The institute was founded in 1910 by the veteran
Indian historian V.K. Rajwade and Sardar K.C. Mehendale.


The main objective behind setting up the Mandal was to provide ready
resources to the historians and researchers, to save their time and to
motivate them. Rajwade conceived this idea long back but could not
fulfill it until Sardar Mehendale met him and on his own expressed his
readiness to support him for anything that he wished to do for the
betterment of history.


The Mandal was founded on 7th July 1910 by the veteran Indian
historian Vishwanath Kashinath Rajwade and Sardar Khanderao Chintaman
Mehendale at Sardar Mehendale's palace at Appa Balwant Chowk in Pune.
To commence the activity Rajwade read an essay in the presence of the
only listener Sardar Mehendale. Later on, the Mandal moved to it's
present building located in Sadashiv Peth area in the heart of the
city. In March 1926 the short tempered Rajwade left Pune due to
differences with the then Administrators of the Mandal and shifted to
Dhule to form another institute which was named after him as 'Rajwade
Sanshodhan Mandir'. The Mandal at Pune, however, continued following
on it's mission to help researchers and contribute to the progress of
historical study. It has since then been highly supported by the
people and scholars by way of donations and bequests of books and
papers. Rajwade's disciples Datto Vaman Potdar and Ganesh Hari Khare
are believed to have played major role in prospering the Mandal and
it's activities.


Founder of the Mandal : V.K.RajwadePresently, the Mandal maintains
more than 1500000 historical papers and 30000 scripts mainly in
Marathi, Modi, Persian, Portuguese and English language. Moreover, it
has also preserved over 4000 coins, 1000 paintings and a few
sculptures and inscriptions in it's well equipped museum. The Mandal's
library keeps a more than 27000 books written mainly in Marathi and
English which can be available to the researchers for free reading or
for a nominal fee on 'Take Home' basis. These resources hold sizable
volumes on the history of Maratha Empire, Maratha culture and Marathi
literature. They also contain a large collection of the material on
British Rule as well as Mughal Rule over India. The Mandal issues a
Quarterly Journal called 'Trai-Masik' wherein essays and articles on
new discoveries are presented. It has also published books written and
edited by veteran historians and reports of annual conferences and
historians' meets. The Mandal periodically organizes lectures,
workshops, training, seminars and study tours for the young
researchers and historians.

[edit] Funding
It was reported in 2004 that the Mandal was insufficiently funded to
micro-film or digitise its collection.[1] In 2009, as it entered its
100th year, it plans to create a permanent fund of Ten Million Rupees
and use the interest from this fund to pay its expenses.[2]

Past Presidents

1910-1913 Ganesh Vyankatesh Joshi
1913-1926 Kashinath Narayan Sane
1926-1935 Chintaman Vinayak Vaidya
1935-1942 Narsinha Chintaman Kelkar
1942-1950 Malojirao Naik Nimbalkar
1950-1974 Datto Vaman Potdar
1974-1981 Ganesh Hari Khare
1981-1983 Hasmukh Dhirajlal Sankaliya
1984-1986 Ramchandra Shankar Walimbe
1988-1991 V.T.Shete

Select Publications

Annual Research Reports
Proceedings of the Annual Conferences
Sources of Maratha History by V.K.Rajwade
Persian Sources of Indian History by G.H.Khare
Miscellaneous Sources of Indian History
Miscellaneous Articles on Indian History
Proceedings on Researches on Pune
Records of the Shivaji's Period
Sources of the Medieval History of the Deccan
Vijayanagar Commemoration Volume
Album of Paintings
Bibliography and Index of Mandal's Publications
Quarterly Journals


Quarterly Journal, January 1991 published by Bharat Itihas Sabshodhak
Mandal, Pune.
'Rajwade Lekhsangraha' (Marathi) published by Sahitya Akademi

External Links

Times of India
Sakaal Times

^ Damle, Manjiri; Neil Pate (23 January 2004). "Libraries struggle to
preserve books". The Times of India (Bennett, Coleman & Co. Ltd).
Retrieved 2009-10-29.
^ Deshpande, Devidas (October 25, 2009). "History in the making
money". Pune Mirror (Bennett Coleman & Co. Ltd).
Retrieved 2009-10-29.

Monday, February 04, 2008

Viswanath Kashinath Rajwade

Viswanath Kashinath Rajwade -(1863 –1921 CE)

Mr. V.K. Rajwade was a rare combination of a researcher, history
grammarian, social scientist and etymologist. Born in an orthodox
family, he lost his father at the age of three. His mother with two
children-both boys, came and stayed with her father at Warsai
Maharashtra. For schooling the brothers went to Pune. Viswanth passed
matriculation examination in 1882. He could not pursue college
studies, due to poverty. He became a trainer for second division
clerks in Public Service Department. After earning some money, he
joined Deccan College, and became a graduate in 1997. Though he was
greatly influenced by scholarly teachers like R.G. Bhandarkar, he came
to know the futility of higher education in India, which did not help
original thinking or research. He did not seek government employment,
which was indirect slavery according to him.

As was the practice, he was married at 15, and when his wife died
after giving birth two children, he did not remarry, though he was
only 30. He started translating world classics in Marathi and started
a Monthly called "Bhashantar". He brought out 15 translations
including Plato's "Republic".

He was unhappy with Maratha history books written by Grant Duff and
others, which try to establish conquerors' view of subjugated people,
and wanted to present unbiased point of view. A student's letter
informing about discovery of a trunk full of old records at Wai
(Satara District. Maharashtra) made him rush to the spot. The dormant
researcher in him came out with full vigor.

There were 202 records pertaining to battle of Panipat in that trunk.
1st volume of these edited records came out in no time (1896). 22
books on 'Sources of Maratha History' followed.

He now started touring the whole of Maharashtra region. No item
pertaining to art, architecture, iconography, social life, language,
literature, customs, folk traditions escaped his inquisitive eye. As
soon as news about the possibility of getting fresh material reached,
he would dash off to the place by any available transport or on foot,
taking with him minimum clothing and cooking utensils. In those days
no eateries existed in remote areas for orthodox Brahmins. Self-
cooking was the only way, to survive.
He got the oldest commentary on Jnaneswari and brought out its
earliest grammatical form. He edited "Radha Madhav Vilas Champu" of
Jayaram Pindye of Shahaji's (father of Shivaji) time, which has
special bearing on the history of contemporary Karnataka. Another book
of original source he edited was Mahikavatichi Bakhar. He explored one
more important source of history i.e etymology (study of origion of
words), led to several archaic rituals & practices of man-kind and he
proved it on the basis of ancient texts. His incomplete work on the
"History of Indian Marriage - Institution" shows his sound knowledge
of Sanskrit (including archaic and Vedic Sanskrit) as also vast
reading of world literature in English of the period. His unbiased
interpretation of hoary mantras, and Mahabharata and Puranic episodes
regarding man-woman relation & evolution of marriage custom led to
storm of protests. He was far ahead in rational approach towards study
of history.
A sage like scholar, known for austere habits and long hours of work
and incessant traveling, he died of high-blood pressure on 31st of
December 1921.

Amma's Column by Jyotsna Kamat

20th June, 2003
Ministry of Communications


The Department of Posts (DoP) will be bringing out a commemorative
postage stamp on V.K. Rajwade on 23rd June, 2003. The stamp is in the
denomination of Rs.5/-

Vishwanath Kashinath Rajwade (1863-1926), one among the pioneering
historians of India. He was a multifaceted personality who left his
imprint in many other disciplines like Linguistics, Literature,
Geography, Oleography and Sociology also. Meticulous in his research
and prodigious in output, he is remembered most for his path breaking
work in historiography. His writings inspired many research scholars
in Maharashtra and other parts of India to pursue the subject at a
time when works of European historians dominated the academic
discourses in Indian history. It is no exaggeration to say that his
work revolutionised the way the subject of history was perceived in
India and helped to advance an Indian view of history.

By founding the Bharat Itihas Sanshodhak Mandal at Pune in 1910, he
institutionalised his research procedures. He had stressed five
aspects in his research methodology, viz., collection of original
historical records, preservation of records, examination and
classification of records, editing and publication of records and
interpretation of sources and writing of histories.

The First Day Cover alongwith the information sheet will be available
on sale at all Philatelic Bureaux/Counters and at selected Post

Horseplay in Harappa: Sid Harth
Troubled Tribal: Sid Harth
Indian Morality Meltdown: Sid Harth
Hindus'Tantrum: Sid Harth
I Write, Therefore I am: Sid Harth
Indian Morality Meltdown: Sid Harth
Sex and CD Scandal: Sid Harth
Not Required Indian, NRI: Sid Harth
Why 'Marathi'?
Telangana Tempest: Sid Harth
Of States and Statesmanship: Sid Harth
Sa for Sanskrit Pop: Sid Harth
Black Money Monster: Sid Harth
Superpower Syndrome: Sid Harth
Indian Power-Pow-Wow, Wow!: Sid Harth
Saga Continues: Sid Harth
Superpower Syndrome: Sid Harth
Of Justice and Injustice: Sid Harth
Sangh Parivar Pageant: Sid Harth
Stop this terroristic activities of Shiv Sena
BJP RIP: Sid Harth
Superpower Syndrome: Sid Harth
Sangh Parivar Pageant: Sid Harth
Sudharma, Sanskrit Newspaper: Sid Harth
Hindu Worldview: Sid Harth
Shimla Shenanigans: Sid Harth

...and I am Sid Harth

TOPIC: Vote for Slumdog

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 28 2010 7:59 am
From: ""

Perth Film Club (Scotland) are conducting an online international poll
to find a film with which to close our Film Festival in April. Votes
can be cast by putting your choice in the subject box of an e-mail and
sending to The films are

The Crying Game


East is East

The Motorcycle Diaries

Last King of Scotland

Slumdog Millionaire

TOPIC: From Paris with love

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 28 2010 10:10 am
From: "harmony"

"RichA" <> wrote in message
On Mar 6, 7:05 pm, wrote:
> A movie about drug dealing and terrorism and this time the bad guys
> are Pakistanis! You cant fool all the people all the time!
> However I think the heroes snorting cocaine as if its all harmless
> is extremely stupid. The first time can bring on a heart attack and
> kill you.

It's so seldom Hollywood has the guts to show actual terrorists
(Pakistanis, Iranians, Syrians, etc). Usually, Hollywood likes to use
wealthy Anglo businessmen as villains, or Republican government
figures, often with blond hair. In their alternate, coward's reality,
the so-called members of the Muslim world are saints, worthy of
adoration, instead of the active or passive terrorists most are.


yes, the hindus have noticed that trend in hollywood. hollywood may have
acquired that from indian cinema where swamis and hindus are shown as the
bad guys, haraasing their women, who then would run away and find shelter in
a mosque of the bearded people or a church of brown men in long white robes
holding a book.

TOPIC: new Movies updates

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 28 2010 11:37 am
From: seenu sri


== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 28 2010 12:19 pm
From: "regn.pickfod"

Ray Fischer wrote:
> regn.pickfod <> wrote:
>> Ray Fischer wrote:
>>> regn.pickfod <> wrote:
>>>> Ray Fischer wrote:
>>>>> regn.pickfod <> wrote:
>>>>>> Ray Fischer wrote:
>>>>>>> regn.pickfod <> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Ray Fischer wrote:
>>>>>>>>> regn.pickfod <> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Ray Fischer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> regn.pickfod <> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ray Fischer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> regn.pickfod <> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ray Fischer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regn.pickfod <> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ray Fischer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regn.pickfod <> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ray Fischer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regn.pickfod <> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ray Fischer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regn.pickfod <> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ray Fischer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regn.pickfod <> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ray Fischer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regn.pickfod <> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ray Fischer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regn.pickfod <> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your hatred is not a good reason.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nonsense.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Truth. Your hatred is not a good enough
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reason.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Robust social f
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your hatred of homoseuals is obvious.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To you, in your head.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You want to imprison and persecute gays. That
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is hatred.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I want the laws changed and I want Homosexuals to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> comply with those laws and _not_ go to gaol.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You want to imprison and persecute gays. Hiding
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behind laws that you want is chickenshit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cowardice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The laws were there many years before I was born.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They do not exist now, bigot.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They have existed and they will exist again,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> People reject your kind of hate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It isn't hate,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You lie in order to justify making people suffer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is hate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I tell the truth to help a known minority suffering a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You're a liar and a bigot.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Homosexuals are known to have a higher than average
>>>>>>>>>>>> symptoms of mental disease.
>>>>>>>>>>> Is there no sleazy propaganda that you won't wallow in?
>>>>>>>>>> If you know anything about Homosexuals then you know it is
>>>>>>>>> If I know anything about bigots it is that you care nothing
>>>>>>>>> for the truth. You care only about rationaliziing your insane
>>>>>>>>> hatred.
>>>>>>>> Homosexuals are Bigots too.
>>>>>>> Grow up, asshole.
>>>>>> Then you don't know enough about Homosexuals to know the
>>>>> Obviously you've done a lot of first-hand research.
>>>> Holy crap. An admission of the accuracy of my claims.
>>> Guess again, bigot. It's sarcasm.
>>>> Homosexuals are Bigots,
>>> Just like Blacks, Jews, Catholics, Heterosecuals, Women, ...
>> So Homosexuals care nothing for the truth and care only about
>> rationalising their insane hatred.?
> No, that's still you.

The only Queer here is you, girly-boyo.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 28 2010 2:19 pm
From: (Ray Fischer)

regn.pickfod <> wrote:
>Ray Fischer wrote:
>> regn.pickfod <> wrote:
>>> Ray Fischer wrote:
>>>> regn.pickfod <> wrote:
>>>>> Ray Fischer wrote:
>>>>>> regn.pickfod <> wrote:
>>>>>>> Ray Fischer wrote:
>>>>>>>> regn.pickfod <> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Ray Fischer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> regn.pickfod <> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Ray Fischer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> regn.pickfod <> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ray Fischer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regn.pickfod <> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ray Fischer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regn.pickfod <> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ray Fischer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regn.pickfod <> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ray Fischer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regn.pickfod <> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ray Fischer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regn.pickfod <> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ray Fischer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regn.pickfod <> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ray Fischer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regn.pickfod <> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ray Fischer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regn.pickfod <> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your hatred is not a good reason.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nonsense.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Truth. Your hatred is not a good enough
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reason.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Robust social f
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your hatred of homoseuals is obvious.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To you, in your head.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You want to imprison and persecute gays. That
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is hatred.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I want the laws changed and I want Homosexuals to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> comply with those laws and _not_ go to gaol.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You want to imprison and persecute gays. Hiding
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behind laws that you want is chickenshit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cowardice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The laws were there many years before I was born.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They do not exist now, bigot.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They have existed and they will exist again,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> People reject your kind of hate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It isn't hate,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You lie in order to justify making people suffer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is hate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I tell the truth to help a known minority suffering a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You're a liar and a bigot.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Homosexuals are known to have a higher than average
>>>>>>>>>>>>> symptoms of mental disease.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Is there no sleazy propaganda that you won't wallow in?
>>>>>>>>>>> If you know anything about Homosexuals then you know it is
>>>>>>>>>> If I know anything about bigots it is that you care nothing
>>>>>>>>>> for the truth. You care only about rationaliziing your insane
>>>>>>>>>> hatred.
>>>>>>>>> Homosexuals are Bigots too.
>>>>>>>> Grow up, asshole.
>>>>>>> Then you don't know enough about Homosexuals to know the
>>>>>> Obviously you've done a lot of first-hand research.
>>>>> Holy crap. An admission of the accuracy of my claims.
>>>> Guess again, bigot. It's sarcasm.
>>>>> Homosexuals are Bigots,
>>>> Just like Blacks, Jews, Catholics, Heterosecuals, Women, ...
>>> So Homosexuals care nothing for the truth and care only about
>>> rationalising their insane hatred.?
>> No, that's still you.
>The only Queer here is you, girly-boyo.

And yet you're the one who thinks about gay sex so much.

Ray Fischer

TOPIC: Old movies and copyrights

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Mar 28 2010 3:29 pm

A friend has tried to get dvds of old black and white movies ,
mostly Dara Singh etc.
Any idea where he can get them or download from the internet


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